Stumblebum Studios Archives

	Home	Archives	Features

Knock-Down Drag-Out

Paul Milligan & Aaron Hall

(Knock Down, Drag-Out is a weekly IM conversation between Aaron Hall and Paul Milligan about a pre-selected topic that will hopefully devolve into cussing, scratching and hurt feelings at the end of each and every edition!) ¡Spoiler Alert! – Spoilers within relating to Day of Vengeance and the Superman/Shazam crossover “Lightning Strikes Twice” Aaron: Okay, so this week... INFINITE CRISIS vs. HOUSE OF M! Right? Paulie: Yep. Aaron: So opening arguments then? You hate House of M and love Infinite Crisis. Something like that? Hahaha! Paulie: Well see, that's kinda premature. Let's just say that I am EXCITED about Infinite Crisis and dig the stuff leading up to it, whereas House of M? I couldn't care less. It's pretty much typical of my feelings about DC vs. Marvel these days. Aaron: As far as my feelings go, I'm equally excited for both of them. I think they're both gonna rock, which also is pretty much typical of my feelings about DC and Marvel right now. Paulie: Hmmm, interesting. Well . . . I guess that's that. Aaron: Hahahaha. I have a few points to make, want me to just jump in with them? Paulie: Sure, I'll tear 'em up when you're done. Aaron: Cool. Well, I gotta say that it bothers me that DC is already tying into their big thing. I mean, picking up OMAC Project and on top really big it says "Only Six Months Until Infinite Crisis". Six freaking months? I really think that putting a six- month countdown on the books is pushing it. Paulie: I don't think so. It's advertising, they're letting everyone know "Look! There's something big coming and if you want in on the ground floor you better start here!" Aaron: “You better start here”? Six months early? Paulie: But it's the truth right? OMAC, Rann/Thanagar, Day of Vengeance and Villains United all lead directly into Infinite Crisis. And they are making that as clear as possible so there aren't those people in 6 months going . . . "Hey, when did all this happen, I didn't know that had anything to do with this." And really, six months in the comics’ community? That's just a story arc. It would have been a worse idea to have all these minis (that they've admitted all fit together) come out with no real indication that they were leading up to something. It's almost like a promise. "Look, read this and in 6 months BAM, there's the payoff." Aaron: Okay but seriously, you're asking a hell of a lot of readers here. Six-part mini = $18. Four six-part minis = $72. And that's not even the end of it; check out this solicitation for OMAC #4 from the latest previews: The events of "Sacrifice" from Wonder Woman # 219 and all three Superman titles force an endgame in the OMAC Project. So now I've gotta go buy three superman books and one Wonder Woman comic that I don't even read to understand OMAC. That's another $12. Paulie: You see, I think there is a cohesiveness in the DC universe right now and it has been mapped out and planned out so well that you don't have to read one to get the other. I really don't think anyone is saying "You have to read all these books to understand this one over here" but they are making people aware that this stuff connects. And in the end, their job is to make money. Aaron: But the fact is they're not making me aware. I know that because I read the three-month advance solicitation for OMAC Project. Now, on the other hand, I'm holding New Avengers #5 in my hand. Know what's inside? I nice little insert that tells me not only exactly which books will crossover with House of M, but exactly which issues of said books will crossover. To me that's truly making me aware of what connects and when. I would've picked up OMAC #4 and just wouldn't have known what was happening because nobody told me I had to read three separate superman books and one Wonder Woman issue. (I really hate the new White Stripes song by the way) Paulie: Bleh, you know what, even aside from whether we agree on if DC or Marvel is doing a good job making people aware of these connections, I've looked at what Marvel is offering and it is pale. It looks dull and boring and offers no real hook. DC on the other hand, they aren't just promising big change. They're delivering and telling good stories at the same time, something Marvel seems to have lost the ability to do. (I haven't heard the new song, is it bad?) Aaron: See, I really don't see how you can even say that. Marvel isn't cramming House of M down my throat six months in advance. And nothing has really changed in DC yet, so they are still just promises. (and yeah, it's really bad.) Paulie: Wow! Lot's of things have changed! But let's take this one step at a time. First, you say that you won't understand OMAC #4, but I don't know how you can say that for sure. DC has been doing a pretty good job lately of keeping things easily understood while including all their books in a bigger picture. I really don't think that they'd let a big mini like OMAC be so dependant on something that people might not read. But something big happens in those books and it affects the characters that are interacting in OMAC, I can't see them not explaining it. Aaron: But I'm the kind of guy that wants to know everything. So it would've mattered to me. Paulie: Well, then you buy those books. Aaron: I'll have to. And I really don't like being forced like this. Paulie: I just don't see this as being forced or rammed down our throats or anything like that. I'm not sure where that idea comes from. They are telling big stories that will tie together and they are letting people know, "Here they are." I mean this is big stuff, why should they have to cram it all into one month before Infinite Crisis comes out. This allows them to take their time to develop stuff and people can choose to read it or not. Aaron: Okay well, obviously we're not going to see eye to eye on the fact that it seems too much too soon. Paulie: Obviously . . . jerk. Aaron: Haha. But I have another point. And I hope you've read day of vengeance #1, because this may spoil part of it. Paulie: I read Day of Vengeance, yeah. Aaron: Not only is DC basically tying everything together, but they're also doing it in a sloppy fashion. Okay, I'm reading the Shazam/Superman crossover thing going on in all the Superman books. Part two came out last week, same day as Day of Vengeance, and in the end, Eclipso has taken over Superman. Okay, cool stuff I guess. I pick up Day of Vengeance, and Eclipso is taking over Jean Loring. What? How is that happening at the same time? Seems like bad planning on DC's part bringing those out side by side. It's like every book I read has a little disclaimer "This issue is pre Wargames, post OMAC, pre Day of Vengeance, and post RANN/Thanagar war?” What's up with that? Paulie: You know what, I wondered the same thing. You know, I realized that they'd explain everything. I don't want to know everything, I want them to try and keep me guessing. Whether the Shazam/Superman thing takes place at the same time as Vengeance? I don't know. But I'm not too confused. But I agree with you, there is a lot of that . . . on both sides of the fence. Aaron: Yeah, Marvel Knights Spiderman came out two weeks ago and Peter, MJ, and Aunt May already lived in Stark Tower. Amazing Spiderman came out last week and they were moving into Stark Tower. I mean, really, is it that hard to catch this stuff? Paulie: A lot of stuff happening, but then in another book, "Whoa, I thought that character was dead!" and someone has to say, "No, this is before that, but after this and that." Aaron: Right, that takes me out of the stories a bit. I don't think it's asking too much for them to be well prepared and organized in the way and order they're releasing these books. Paulie: I think it's funny, for a while they tried to become kind of continuity free, but then they (both Marvel and DC) started tying things together, so you've kind of got two things going on. 1) Do a great story and don't worry about continuity, even though . . . 2) what you are doing directly contradicts this over here. Someone really should be in charge of stopping stuff like that from happening. Aaron: And that comes around to Marvel being smaller than DC. Do you remember the story Rebecca (an employee from Titan Comics in Dallas) told us about that 1-900 number from Silver Surfer? Paulie: Haha, yeah. Aaron: Basically, for those of you out there, in an issue of Silver Surfer one of the characters gave out a phone number to call if Silver Surfer had abducted your child or whatever. So Rebecca calls the number, and it turns out to be a sex line. You'd think these companies would check stuff like that. Paulie: Exactly. Someone should be there, just to check stuff like that. There should be a room full of guys’ conferencing with each other, making sure stuff doesn't lead to a porn site or clash with this month's Uncanny X-Men (or whatever.) What are the editors doing? Aaron: Counting the money? Hahaha. Paulie: No doubt. Aaron: So, what about House of M turns you off? Why are you so sure it has nothing to offer you? Paulie: Well, I have read the interviews with the DC guys and I have read the interviews with the Marvel guys. The DC guys told me about how they were trying to tell simply great stories and make them impactful and meaningful to these characters. And it rang true and it excited me, because these are guys that really seem to care and have really worked hard at this. The Marvel guys told me about some 90's Goth lookin' chick named Layla Miller who has great spin-off potential. Really? That's . . . that's worth doing an interview about? Aaron: But the fact is Marvel didn't come forward with that interview. Someone noticed that character and went to Marvel about it. Other than that they've stayed pretty quiet about House of M. I almost get a sense that DC has been doing interview after interview, tie-ins and miniseries six months ahead of Infinite Crisis, just making all this noise. And you look over and Marvel's pretty quiet, like they're gonna let House of M speak for itself. I really like that. Paulie: That's another thing. They're quiet about all the wrong stuff; you have absolutely no clue (at least until recently and I only picked this up from a few remarks here and there) what the hell House of M is and why there are all these weird mini-series with characters that look different. Aaron: But House of M is still far enough off that they don't have to show all their cards yet. Personally, I appreciate the fact that they're not cramming it down my throat like DC has been cramming their big thing down my throat. Paulie: No, see, the press on House of M coming out of Marvel typifies what Marvel is all about "Oohh, look at the pretty pictures . . . uh, story? Oh yeah, uh . . . there's gonna be stuff . . . and it happens. AND LAYLA MILLER!" Aaron: Layla Miller is the new Arana, hahaha. Paulie: "DC has been cramming their big thing down my throat." -Aaron Hall HAHAHAHAHA!!! Aaron: Oh lord, did I really say that? Wow... Paulie: YES!!! That was AWESOME!! Aaron: That's the gayest thing I've ever inadvertently written. Paulie: I want to get a shirt that says that with your picture on it. (Short pause as I call Aaron to laugh at him for his Freudian slip) Okay . . . heh . . . moving on from that. Aaron: Hahaha. Paulie: Another reason why I have very little interest in House of M is that it spins out of a story ("Avengers Disassembled") that I considered to be . . . mediocre at best. Aaron: I can't argue there. Avengers Disassembled wasn't very good. Paulie: It's essentially dealing with the aftereffects of a story I didn't really like that much. Why should I care about that? The only saving grace for House of M is Olivier Coipel, who I think is a fantastic artist. Aaron: I have a great counter punch though, isn't infinite crisis essentially dealing with the aftereffects of Identity Crisis? Another story you didn't really like that much. Paulie: Ah, I knew that would come up, but on the whole, aside from the God awful climax, I really did like Identity Crisis and many of the plot points it set up. At this point the most important aspects of Identity Crisis that are being dealt with are the ones that I liked the most: The villains who were "altered" The JLA messing with Batman's head The whole dark history that has been uncovered But "Avengers Disassembled"? There was nothing in there, I latched onto, therefore there are no dangling plot points I care to see resolved. Aaron: But that's one of my points. In the issue of Batman that came out last week, they actually did a lot to further that story. But there was nothing on there that said "Hey, if you want the whole story you should read this too". It was just in there. Paulie: See, I think you can read some of these books, like Batman and such, without having read everything and still understand the story. On the other hand, having read the connecting stuff, we are able to see the bigger picture. Aaron: But if I didn't just happen to read Batman regularly, I would've missed out on those awesome scenes which definitely tied into everything. "I needed someone I could trust, unfortunately you were the only person available." When Batman hits you with a line like that your ass is in trouble! And I would've missed it! Paulie: But if you had missed it, it would not have lessened your understanding of the story, right? You could still get what's going on. I don't see why it's such a bad thing to have the multi-layered universe where one thing affects something else and if you pay close enough attention you get to see it all play out. What's so bad about that? By the way, I missed the last Batman AGAIN! They were sold out and I was dumb enough not to have put it on my list still. Aaron: DUDE! It was so wicked! I guess I just feel like Marvel is doing a better of job of letting me know exactly what is going to be involved in House of M. Paulie: The thing is, even if they are, I just don't care. It's not a story that strikes a chord with me. And they have proven time and again, especially recently, that they are more about hype than quality. I mean real hype, in the sense of releasing cool images and neat little teases but not actually saying anything substantial about their story. It's all bluster. Aaron: And I really couldn't disagree more. I feel like they've been just as good as DC lately. Paulie: DC seems to be to be doing their best to form a cohesive, solid world, with a unique feel. Marvel is scattershot, throwing as many different things against the wall hoping against hope that they will nail the next big fad. Aaron: See, I think that's way harsh and totally untrue. If anything I feel like DC is locked it's entire universe into one story. What happens if I hate that story? I'm basically not gonna read DC for the next nine months. Marvel is doing a big thing with House of M, but they're not making it necessary for me to pick up every fringe book and mini-series in the world just to halfway understand it. Paulie: Look at all the different, almost nonsensical "imprints" Marvel has. There's almost a new "imprint" every month that sticks around for a little while before fading away. Aaron: Johnny DC? 2000 AD? Humanoids? CMX Manga? Vertigo? Wildstorm? (all DC imprints) Paulie: But those are non-connected imprints that offer a diverse array of material from several different sources for different tastes. Marvel has something like three or four or even five different imprints existing within one universe with no clear rhyme or reason. It's a sales booster like putting out a new #1 for no reason. Aaron: I don't know of anyone who buys a book simply because it's "Marvel Knights" or a "MAX" title. I think it's just a way to try to better organize their titles. Marvel Next for the newer titles featuring younger and new talent. Marvel Knights for the core heroes that have been around a while. MAX for the adult stuff. Paulie: It looks like organization masking chaos. But that's just my opinion. Aaron: And four hundred issues crossing into Infinite Crisis six months in advance doesn't? Paulie: That's a bit of an exaggeration. Aaron: This whole conversation has made me hate DC and Infinite Crisis. Hahaha. Paulie: I hope it doesn't get stuck in your throat. Aaron: Oh man.... I knew it was coming... Paulie: Yes, I'm sorry . . . let's all be adults. Aaron: That's quite a task. So, final thoughts on this raging debate? Paulie: So now you hate DC? Wow, I have utterly failed. Aaron: Hahahaha. No I don't hate DC at all. I'm excited about what I've read thus far and excited about Infinite Crisis. I'm simply not impressed with how they've kept me informed about all the books that tie into it. Paulie: Well, I wasn't too fond of Marvel before, and well, that opinion hasn't changed much. They have a few titles that I enjoy and I plan to stick with. That's as much as I can do. Aaron: So in your opinion, in the match of Infinite Crisis vs. House of M the winner is definitely Infinite Crisis? Paulie: I will most likely pick up House of M, in the spirit of at least trying it before judging it too harshly. But I'm not expecting much. But quality-wise, yes, I will say that Infinite Crisis will far outweigh House of M. As for sales? I don't know, there's a reason X-books are still number one and it isn't because they are good. That's all I'll say about that. Aaron: As for me, I think that the match of Infinite Crisis vs. House of M will be a draw. I think I'll enjoy them both equally and that they'll both be great. Paulie: You're a better man that I, sir. Aaron: Or maybe dumber and too willing to spend the money to give them both a chance. And, I guess I need to confess something... I'm not buying House of M. My roommate is. I probably would've bought it if he didn't, but the fact is I'll get to read it for free. Paulie: BOOM, the bombshell. You've just rendered this whole conversation meaningless! Aaron: At this point, if I was made to choose one, I think Infinite Crisis would be my choice. So there you go, my big scary secret. Paulie: Yay! I win! As long as Rob Liefeld doesn't draw Infinite Crisis, I am 100% on board. Aaron: Two issues of Teen Titans. It's wonderful because it vexes you so. Paulie: It certainly does vex me. What is wrong with people? Anyway, I guess that about wraps it up. I think we all learned something important here. Aaron: I know I did - Rob Liefeld rules! Paulie: What we learned is that I won. The End!