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Knock-Down Drag-Out

Paul Milligan & Aaron Hall

(Knock-Down, Drag-Out is a weekly IM conversation between Aaron Hall and Paul Milligan about a pre-selected topic that will hopefully devolve into cussing, scratching and hurt feelings at the end of each and every edition!) ¡SPOILER ALERT! This subject of this, the inaugural Knock-Down, Drag-Out is Batman #368. If you haven’t read Batman #368 and don’t want the big surprise ending ruined for you then don’t read this, go read Batman #368 and then come back and read this! Aaron:  How's it going? Paul:  Eh, it's going. Work, work, work. A:  You need to postpone this 'till tomorrow? P:  No I'm good; let's do this thing! A:  Cool, cool, cool. So, the return of you-know-who. P:  Yes, Batman #368! The Return of The Todd! A:  So, first off. We both liked it, yeah? P:  Hell yeah, and I've got a ton of reasons to like this book! A:  I agree. A great moment in comics. I really didn't think they had the guts to do this, but I was way wrong. P:  I know. First off, I have been a HUGE fan of Judd Winick's work on Batman. I haven't been the biggest fan of most of his superhero stuff. I love his non-spandex stuff, Barry Ween, Pedro and Me, Frumpy the Clown, Caper. But until his Batman run, not much love for the Winick superhero books. A:  And I'm your opposite there. I loved his Green Lantern stuff, Green Arrow, and of course his Batman stuff. P:  I remember you getting waaay into his Green Lantern run. Now that Tom Fowler is drawing Green Arrow . . . I might have to give it a look-see. A:  Yeah, I loved his whole run on G.L. and G.A. has been wonderful too. It's funny that even though we differ on that we both like his Batman so much. P:  It's just been great, starting with his original stint with Dustin Nguyen - the Scarecrow/Penguin story. But yeah, you've been a pretty regular follower of the Winick super-books while I hated most of it, yet here we are (for once) loving the crap out of this one book he's doing. A:  So, it's been a few months of speculation about the identity of the Red Hood. You've been saying for a while that you thought it was Jason Todd haven't you? P:  It was pretty much a gimme don't you think? He even set up the Jason Todd return in the final issue of his initial run. It's hard to surprise me when it comes to comics. A:  It just seemed too obvious to me. Plus, I didn't think DC had the guts to "go there" if you will. I thought that they'd pull an Identity Crisis and just make it someone totally random and disappointing. P:  Yeah, I think that was the biggest surprise of all, everyone knew it was going to be him, everyone wanted it to be him and BAM, it really was him. So many times it's such a let down when the "surprise" is revealed, especially with something like Identity Crisis, which I loved right up to the end and then hated after the killer was revealed. Such a cop out. A:  Yeah, we were both pretty let down by the identity of the "Identity Crisis" killer. So I was really glad to see DC stepping up and not being afraid to do something so major as the resurrection of Jason Todd. But it wasn't just the fact that it was him, it was the scene in which they revealed him. Man, that gave me chills as I read it. P:  It was perfect. Beating the Joker down, it's hard not to sympathize with the guy because that's exactly what the Joker did to him. Did you ever read the "A Death In The Family" storyline where Todd was killed? A:  That's funny, I was gonna talk about that next. I was only seven when that story happened, and I remember my brother giving me the trade. I read it and it was really my first comic book. I was still young and the thing just affected me pretty heavily. It was just so heavy and emotional. That made this new scene especially impactful for me; I had that same feeling as I did when I was a kid. P:  Wow, that's cool. I just remember seeing the book on a rack at the BX (one stop shop on an Air Force base) and even though I didn't actually buy it, it's left a pretty lasting image in my head. I finally read the story a few years ago and it was pretty . . . bloody. A:  Yeah, surprisingly violent for a book from the 80's. P:  They gave the fans what they wanted . . . a dead as hell Jason Todd. I read something funny somewhere - do you think all the people who called in to the 900 number voting to kill Todd should get their money back? I mean they paid for DEATH! A:  Hahaha, yeah I read that too. I also thought it was really cool; Judd Winick actually called in and voted for Jason Todd to live. I found that to be a really cool fact. P:  Makes sense. But I think the coolest thing about this story is that there is such a painful history behind it for all the characters involved. Without that death it wouldn't be impactful at all. A:  Right, the best thing about it is what it can possibly mean for the future of the book. How will Batman respond? How will Tim Drake take it? How will Nightwing take it? I mean this affects so much and so many people. P:  Exactly. And I'll bet it's a bit of wish fulfillment on some level for a lot of fans. The "Evil" Robin. Batman's biggest mistake coming back to kick his ass. I know you and I have talked about this kind of thing before, wanting a certain former Robin to turn bad. It provides Batman with one of the most perfect villains ever. A:  For the first time I can see Batman thinking twice before beating the crap out of a villain, you know? P:  Yeah, and that's why this guy is such a foil . . . it's one of Batman's "kids". I remember when this whole Return of Jason Todd thing started, waaay back near the end of the Loeb/Lee Hush storyline. The issue where they "revealed" that Hush was actually Jason Todd, that was my absolute favorite issue of the whole storyline. It was such a kick ass reveal that I think it ultimately hurt the story when "Todd" was shown to actually be Clayface. Nothing, especially not the transparent climax that revealed Hush's true identity, could live up to how cool it would have been had Jason Todd been the bad guy all along. Which is probably where this whole thing started. DC realized that Jason Todd SHOULD come back. I think a lot of people had the same reaction to that issue of Hush as I did. A: Yeah, I totally agree that it hurt the "Hush" storyline overall. People were like "Oh hell yeah" and then it's revealed to be Clayface and Hush is really . . . wait for it . . . "boyhood friend Tom Elliot"! GASP! Oh wait, that's lame. So yeah, it really did hurt the story a bit in my opinion. P:  Tommy Elliot was such an obvious suspect that I really can't believe they actually used that ending. A:  You know one thing I think is worth mentioning is the structure of the current Batman story arc. In the first issue, Batman and the Red Hood are battling and the Red Hood pulls off Batman's mask. Then he decides to "return the favor" and pulls of his own mask. Then we've spent four or so issue's doing a flashback seeing what lead up to that moment. And even though it was revealed to be Jason Todd to the reader, Batman still doesn't know in this current story arc. P:  I thought that was a bit of a cheat actually. Having the cover with Batman pulling off the mask, I was expecting to see Batman find out in that issue. I loved the issue; don't get me wrong, just felt kinda cheated. A:  Plus, it's hard to deny he looked pretty goofy on that cover. Chris (my roommate) and I had a pretty good laugh over that cover. P: I think they were going for something there . . . they were trying to do the old Silver Age trick cover and it definitely had that style, but it didn't really fit the book. Several minutes pass with no conversation A:  Hahaha, are we out of things to say? P:  No . . . I was just waiting for you. I thought you had a response. Are YOU out of things to say? A:  Jason Todd neat, Batman good, Winick neat, comics good. P:  Awesome. A:  Yeah, I just busted out the intelligent highbrow stuff. P:  Wait, Doug Mahnke! A:  Yeah, some good arts to be had in this book. P:  That's half the reason that Batman rocks so hard! I love Doug Mahnke; he's a perfect fit for this book right now. I can't say enough good things about him. A:  Yeah, a very solid artist. Not a lot of flash, but there's really never a time where I feel like he's "dipping" or rushing. Just a solid, easy to follow art style. P:  See, I feel much more excited when I see Mahnke's artwork. Beyond being a solid artist, he makes everyone look like a badass. Everything he draws is a joy to look at. A:  You and I RARELY see eye to eye as far as comic art goes, so I'm surprised we both even like this guy. In my mind he's a "par" kind of guy. Never great but never terrible. P:  Wow . . . Here comes the knock-down, drag-out part A:  Hahaha P:  Nah, we're much too far along to start arguing at this point. But yeah, when it comes to art . . . it's just better for us to agree to disagree most of the time.  *cough* Liefeld *cough* A:  There are more Liefeld fans out there than you think, and in my defense I did drop the new X-Force after it was obvious he wasn't doing his best work on it. I love the art on Batman. Don't get me wrong. I'd much rather have a solid artist like Mahnke than someone who is on sometimes and off other times. P:  It would be hard for Liefeld to not have more fans than I think; considering I'm surprised ANYONE likes him. A:  Hahaha P:  But you are right, Mahnke is a real solid guy and surprisingly does more than monthly work, a real treat in this day and age. He's drawing the JLA/Cyberforce crossover (which I do not understand, but I know you will geek over.) A:  WOOT! P:  See? A:  Stryker in the house! P:  That is the worst thing anyone has ever said. A:  Could be... P:  So, just to close this out on topic, where do you think this Jason Todd/Red Hood story is going? And will it have a good ending? A:  That's my one concern. I am optimistic that this will be a lasting change in the Batman universe. However, I have this small dread in the back of my mind that four issues from now it'll all be revealed to have been just a hologram being beamed into our reality by a Lex Luthor from dimension R or some nonsense such as that. So I will keep following it and hope it doesn't "Identity Crisis". P:  You do notice that no one in the actual comic has come right out and said: "That is Jason Todd!" Could be an out for DC . . . that's the first thing I thought when I finished issue 638 . . . no one said it was Jason Todd. A:  So we're approaching it like a 17 year old girl who's had her heartbroken one too many times and is tentative to enter into a new relationship because she is afraid of being hurt again, but she does it anyways hoping this is the boy who will prove to be the one who isn't a jerk like all the others. Right? P:  Just like all comic fans do. Deep down we are all 17 year old girls who've been hurt one too many times to really trust any guys, but then we're still stupid enough to think Mr. Right is out there. A:  Wow, this is taking a bizarre, yet slightly sexy turn. P:  This analogy is becoming disturbing . . .Just don't say "virgin". A:  Hahaha P:  Okay, concluding thoughts on the return of Jason Todd. This book (along with Countdown) pretty much exemplifies why I am so into DC right now and so down on Marvel. DC is taking chances and trying to tell stories that matter within the context of their shared universe. Marvel on the other hand are doing their level best to make it look like they're being daring and relevant and they're failing miserably. Though GLA (by Dan Slott and Paul Pelletier, on sale now) rocks!!! A:  Well, I disagree big time on the Marvel thing. I think it's a high time for the industry and both of the big two are doing things that are great. The return of Jason Todd was awesome and will lead to some great Batman stories the likes of we've never read. MARY JANE: HOMECOMING (by Sean McKeever and Takeshi Miyazawa, also on sale now) RULES! The end? P:  The end. A:   . . . Thank God they all left. P:  I just pictured everyone naked. A:  Even batman? P:  Especially Batm . . . wait a sec . . . is this thing still on?